TechTopia TechTopia TechTopia TechTopia er en ugenlig podcast om mennesker og deres teknologi, udgivet af Ingeniørforeningen Ida, støttet af Punktum.dk, Ida Forsikring og Messecenter Herning. Mit navn er Henrik Føns, og det er mig, der bestemmer I. TechTopia TechTopia TechTopia TechTopia TechTopia TechTopia TechTopia Da internettet begyndte at blive værnmeinserje for en 25-30 år siden, der sagde man altid, at man skulle kigge på pornobranchen for at forstå, hvordan man laver penge på nettet. pornobranchen has so many up and ned tours on the network and you can say that the way to make the kind of income and distribute it on and not least the way to pay for porn has changed many times one of the most most of the most of the most of the most was that the whole of people could start uploading and sharing the information they had produced with each other without a economic environment man can say that the porn industry was quite hard at tjene penge on a lot of people's trang to make porn to net it's like filmsternes that all of a sudden could make a video with their private opt-in from sove and then it was so much on the net there are also the people who mened at the pornificing of net has been able to be the right people in sove soveværelset om man so or so at det forbrænger vores billede af hvad sex og sammenliv i virkeligheden er og en af dem det er overraskende nok en kvinde som har et ja, hvad man vel godt kan definere som et porno website hun hedder Cindy Gallop og websiteet hedder make love not porn og det der foregår der ja, det er at helt almindelige mennesker de uploader deres helt almindelige sexliv til den her tjeneste og så kan man abonnere på den og se dem lave langkymestik for at se det rent ud og Cindy Gallop hun gør det fordi hun gerne vil opdrage folk i ordentlige omgangsformer når det handler om sex I date younger men and about 15-16 years ago I began realising through my personal experience dating younger men that when we don't talk openly and honestly about sex porn becomes sex education by default in not a good way I'm a naturally action oriented person and so I went I want to do something about this so 14 years ago I put up on no money a tiny clunky website at makelovenotporn.com Tidligere på sommeren der er lanseret Cindy Gallop en såkaldt crowdfunding kampagne det vil sige at det ikke lige kunne helt almindelige mennesker uploader deres pornovideoer til hendes website man kunne også blive medejer man kunne simpelthen investere i det her projekt og en del af de penge skulle gå til et undervisnings website i især altså seksualundervisning man må nok erkende at det er ikke alle lande i verden der har seksualundervisning i skolen på samme måde som Danmark har så der kan måske være brug for det spørgsmålet er så om Cindy Gallops version af seksualundervisning er den rette og det er det vi kommer til at kigge lidt på i Tentopia i dag du kommer til at møde Cindy Gallop igen men du kommer også til at møde en ansat hos hendes website en ansat som er kurator en som sidder og kigger de her videoer igennem det har faktisk været hendes job i 10 år at sidde og kigge alle de videoer der bliver uploadet til sitet igennem for at vurdere om de nu også er ok i forhold til de retningslinjer de har at det skal være rigtig almindelig sex mellem almindelige mennesker så et ikke helt almindeligt job så taler jeg også med Daisy Løvendal der er dansk seksolog og partierpøvd og som driver nogle forskellige podcast og har også lavet radioprogram på Radio 4 på et tidspunkt for at høre hendes mening om det her projekt alt det kan du komme til at høre i den næste times tid prøver du så at en lytter til Techtopia så læn dig tilbage eller rang dig i sædet eller lyt ekstra godt efter på cyklen eller i bilen eller hvor du er henne fordi nu kommer den nemlig til at handle om lagen gymnastik og i stedet for bare at tale med Cindy Gallop så går vi ind bag facaden My name is Ariel Martinez and I am the head of curation at Make Love Not Porn Make Love Not Porn TV is the world's first video sharing platform in which we invite contributors to share their real world sex with us so what that means is that we ask for people to record and share the videos of themselves having the sex they do in their everyday lives with ideally no editing so in porn a lot of times or even in like rom-com sex really any media depiction of sex what we end up seeing is very glossy it's usually very choreographed it's very you know scripted and we really it can really skew our collective ideas of what sex is and can look like so at Make Love Not Porn we really want to hold the mirror up to the sex we have in the real world and celebrate that in all of its like weird awkward blooper moments that we all experience and really rarely get to see so we like to say if porn is the Hollywood blockbuster then we're the documentary and what is the mission why is why is this important Make Love Not Porn is pro-sex pro-porn pro knowing the difference and we actually started because our my boss and our CEO and founder Cindy Gallop it's a funny story she used to work in advertising and she slept she started sleeping with younger men originally as like a way to test out this like cougar dating app I don't know if cougar translates but in the US it's like an older woman that sleeps with younger men and she was realizing that she was basically having like the same sex with all of these younger men and she was like what is going on here and she realized that for a lot of like the internet like demographic of people that had grown up on the internet porn had really become the dominant form of sex education and that was really skewing a lot of her experience with sex and she was like if this is a problem for me this is definitely a problem for other people as well which led her to thinking about this talking about it in a TED talk that's now viral and very celebrated and I believe that she's the only person to say come on my face on the TED stage and I can confidently say she's the only person to say it six times I launched Make Love Not Porn the TED conference back in 2009 my talk went viral and it drove an extraordinary global response to my tiny website that I had never anticipated thousands of people wrote to me from every country in the world young and old, male and female, straight and gay, pouring their hearts out telling me things about their sex lives and their porn watching habits they'd never told anyone before and I realised I'd uncovered a huge global social issue so I turned Make Love Not Porn into a business designed to solve that by doing good and making money simultaneously so today we are the world's first and only user generated 100% human curated social sex video sharing platform the way to think about us is if porn is the Hollywood blockbuster movie Make Love Not Porn is the badly needed documentary we are a unique window onto the funny, messy, loving, wonderful sex we all have in the real world we are socialising, normalising and destigmatising sex bringing out of the shadows into the sunlight to promote consent, communication, good sexual values and behaviour we are literally sex education through real world demonstration And then how did you get involved? I got involved, I was actually in college and I was studying sociology and gender and sexuality and I knew that I wanted to work in sex education I grew up in Texas where there's really no sex education at all it's very abstinence only, like really nothing and I'm also queer and there's no queer, there's no sex education, let alone queer sex education and so I knew that I wanted to go into sex education in some capacity and I found out about Make Love Not Porn when reading a issue of Cosmopolitan magazine in an airport and I was like that's a really good idea and I emailed and asked if she wanted a college intern and I've been here, that was 11 years ago So you've been doing this for 11 years? I've been doing this for 11 years, yes Wow Yeah But now you mentioned that it's educational I mean if you log onto the website you will see people having sex so what is the educational part about this? Because they're not like instruction videos on how to have sex it's just people having sex Well isn't that kind of, can be an instructional video of people having sex? I think that, well it's interesting you say that because firstly we're actually in the midst of building Make Love Not Porn Academy right now that's what I was doing right before this call was research on that project and so we are doing a crowdfunding round right now or a series of micro investments and the goal of that is to actually fund Make Love Not Porn Academy which will be a place on the internet where there is sex education in a more straightforward way that's going to be age inclusive so we'll have things for every age including under 18 year olds to really find sex education that's age appropriate and I'm really, we're really excited to ideally build that in public and so people can really see it coming together as we're, you know, opening it up opening the doors up if you will so that will be a much more comprehensive and much more, I think, sex education and like the terms that people think of sex education but I do think that makelovenotporn.tv which is currently active and is the site you and I are talking about is sex education in that I think that it's video, video demonstration as means of education and so I think that like when people haven't, I think that sex education is something that's mostly experienced by personal experience like, oh, I didn't know you could do that, I didn't know people were into that or, you know, it's watching porn, it's watching, you know, an inspiring scene in a movie and I think that when, or maybe, you know, you're able to go to like sex parties and see sex there but I think that sex education is really a means of gathering information about what other people are doing and what you could be doing and what could be interesting to you and I think that makelovenotporn does do that and that, you know, here's this window into all of these people's really intimate moments and really seeing that people can have sex all kinds of ways like I think that a lot of people think that sex, you know, means only one thing or a couple different sex acts so there's only like four positions or whatever but at Make Love Not Porn, we really say that we want to see people's real world sex and we don't define what that is so something I haven't talked about yet is that every video on Make Love Not Porn is viewed from beginning to end by a member of our curation team so that's who I manage is our curators and I was on, I used to watch all of the videos myself for many years before kind of moving into this position and we don't define what that is we just say that we want to see your real world sex and, you know, show us what that looks like and we've seen, you know, we have a video of tantric kissing that's sex to this couple we have videos that are mostly like spanking or mostly like nipple play and I think that what this does is it really shows the breadth of what sex can look like and I think that that is a very much educational component I also think that like when people are maybe navigating an obstacle in sex maybe there's been a medical diagnosis or maybe there's an injury or maybe, you know, your body just isn't working how it used to work and you have to kind of rethink what sex can look like or maybe you realize that you're not having the sex you want to have I think that all of these like light bulb moments that people experience when watching our videos all of that I think is educational and that I think that it can be very, you know, be like, oh, I want to try that that's new, that's education and I think that it's also can be very validating and affirming to see that there's all these people having sex in all these different ways But you mentioned that the creators and you have been a creator too are watching all this video Why do we watch it all in person? We watch all of the videos for a couple of reasons One is that MakeLoveNotPorn is the only place on the internet where every single piece of content that's uploaded and published to our site is vetted by a member of our team So when we're watching all of these videos and publishing it, you know, they get the ML and P stamp of approval and that we vouch for this video And that is for a couple reasons One is that consent is really built into the ethos of our mission So to publish a video on MakeLoveNotPorn, you need two forms of government issued ID You need an intro video explaining what we're going to see in the actual real-world sex video as well as the video itself You need a background and we also require an email for all participants And that's also included for anyone behind the camera So if I was to take a video of my friends, I would be on that submission My IDs would be in the folder, my email would be in the folder, we would all know what was going on We also really build a relationship with all of our MakeLoveNotPorn stars And so especially for some of the people who, you know, at this point I've been emailing for 8-10 years I think that there's really an interesting, like, intimacy in that Where I am making these, like, kind of friendships with MakeLoveNotPorn stars Which is something I really didn't expect when I came into this job But I'm getting a bit sidetracked So the reason that we watch all of the videos from start to end Is just to make sure that they're consensual thoroughly and that they're contextualized So a lot of times when we are watching, like, mainstream porn What happens is, like, someone knocks on the door, you know, it's like a sexy delivery man Being, you know, greeted by a very hot, lonely woman And then all of a sudden cut to, and there's, like, very intense penetrative sex And we don't really see, like, the flirtation building up to that We don't see any tension, we don't see any, like, awkward eye contact, like, nothing And we really encourage people to leave that in, like, all of that in And we also really encourage people to leave the camera rolling after And then we also just want to make sure that the videos that we're accepting Aren't, like, just other pieces of porn And so we're looking for the real-world sex, like, authenticity with that And I think when I say that a lot of people think that that means that we're looking only for, like, certain kinds of sex acts Or that that can serve as a kind of censorship And that's not what I mean at all What I mean is that we ask for the context behind it So if someone is actually really into, you know, hair pulling Or, you know, coming on someone's part of their body That's not an automatic no for us at all We just want to see, like, I've always been really interested in hair I think it's really sexy when they do this This is a form of intimacy Like, we just really want that context to really bring us into the person's experience Something I think a lot about with porn is It just really feels like, like, different bodies moving as these kinds of, like, mechanical parts And I think that Make Love Mount Porn really brings in the humanity of, like, the people behind it Where you are meeting these people and they're like, good morning from, you know, New York City And, you know, you're just really seeing these people and their lives behind the sex that you're seeing And I think that that merging isn't something that we're really frequently seeing Sex is...porn is usually very performative It's putting on a character It's putting on, you know, it's creating this, like, fantasy And we want to see how the fantasy is created in real life If that means, like, a laundry pile in the corner Or your cat walking in Or your dog, who you'll probably hear my dog in this interview You know, it's the real-world component that we really want to celebrate As a means of, you know, just providing this, like, alternative of...of sex...sexuality It's like celebrating sexuality When you first started doing this job, what was your reaction? What was it like to watch videos of people you didn't know having sex? Um, that's a funny question I think that it's...it's...when I watch things with, like, the sound off Or, like, if I was just, like, seeing if, like, a video worked Just, like, kind of playing it through Um, it didn't feel very, like...it was just kind of like, oh, okay, this is whatever But I realized that it was the sound that made things feel really, like, intimate for me Um, which was, like, an interesting realization of just how my, like, brain processed that Um, but it was really interesting I mean, I feel like I really got to, like, know...I mean, I was watching the most videos a few years ago Um, when our community was smaller And so I was watching a lot of videos by, like, the same Make Love Not Porn stars, as we like to call them But I remember I was watching a lot of this one video Who...they don't have videos up anymore Um, but they were submitting pretty regularly And then they ended up coming to New York, which is where I live Um, to do this, like, documentary with us And I felt like I really knew them Because we had been emailing so much And I'd seen them, you know, on this, like, road trip through the southwest I'd seen them move apartments I'd seen them get a new cat Like, I feel like I'd, like, been with them through all of these You know, kind of intimate life moments And then one morning, the woman was like I'm gonna go for a run And I was like, oh, I didn't know you were a runner And I felt, like, really, like, surprised by that information And then I kind of had this moment of being like, why would I know that? Like, I see so much of her life, but not, you know, her...her day-to-day of this And that was, like, a funny realization for me Of, like, I know these people really well But I, in some ways But I also don't know so much of their life But I feel like I do have this, like, specific window Into a lot of people's really intimate lives And then after a little bit of time I realized that I was, like, super desensitized to seeing nudity Like, I would, like, see something And my friends would be like, whoa And I was like, what? Like, it just, like, didn't compute to me that that could be something, like, funny Or, like, I would have things up on my computer And my partner at the time would be like, whoa And I was like, what? Like, I just...it didn't compute to me Like, not safe for work stopped meaning anything to me Because it was work It was work It was work Or I'd be, like, checking my phone, you know And I follow a bunch of, you know, people who will post risky things on Twitter from work And I would be, like, picking up a prescription And there would be, like, an asshole on my timeline And I was just like, oh, I'm in Walgreens I probably should close my phone So I think that that was, like, a funny realization Is, as my friends, you know, got jobs that weren't in this field Just talking about our, like, different work days Kind of went in different directions But, yeah, I guess that's still true I still open my phone to weird things because of who I follow Now it's all very community-like But there is also a narrative model I Make Love Not Porn Arbeidganger, at man melder sig Som, de kalder for en Make Love Not Porn Star På site Og så kan man så, um, upload Den film, man nu har skudt i sit, uh, soveværelse Eller badeværelse Eller hvor der er, man, øh Man dyrker sex Så havner den i postboxen hos Ariel Eller en af hendes kollegaer, som kigger den igennem Og de skriver begejstret tilbage Hvor er vi glade for, at du vil være med til det her Og så bliver videoen offentliggjort Ved og mærke kun til folk, som har et abonnement på website Og de kan så købe adgang til at se den her video Og pengene bliver så delt mellem sitet og den, der har lavet videoen Selvom indkomsten for en video ligger i omegnen af en dollar Så hæver du Ariel af flere af deres MLNP-stjerner De tjener nok til at betale deres husleje Så lad os lige runde for retningsmodellen Men når du besøgte Make Love Not Porn Du pager for at se videoen og du ikke ser nogen kommercialer Så hvordan fungerer det som business? Så jeg foresaw de kreator economy 14 år gør When I conceptet Make Love Not Porn's business model To democratise access to income We operate a revenue sharing business model And when I launched Make Love Not Porn 10 years ago I explained why we do this Because basically our members pay to subscribe, rent and stream social sex videos Half that income goes to our contributors Who we call out Make Love Not Porn stars And when we launched I wrote a blog post Which was titled How Make Love Not Porn can help the global economy And I began it by saying You know all those little scam ads that pop up on the internet all the time Going make $2,000 a week working from home Well now you can And in that blog post I said My aim is one day to reach the kind of critical mass Where your Make Love Not Porn video could get a million rentals At $5 per rental and we give you half that income Now we're a very long way away from doing that Because we face a lot of challenges You know trying to find funding to scale But I'm delighted to tell you that during the pandemic A lot of our Make Love Not Porn stars like everyone else Lost jobs, couldn't find work They told us that our monthly payouts Will enable them to keep going And pay rent in that situation Which I'm so pleased about I'm not sure whether you talk about the figures But how much, I mean how many videos do we have And how much money do you actually channel out to the people who contribute Sure, so we at the, and actually I should contextualise my response to that question Because the one thing I didn't realise when I embarked on this venture Was that I and my tiny team would fight an enormous battle every single day Not just to grow it but even to keep it alive Basically because every piece of business infrastructure Any other tech start-up takes for granted We can't, the small print always says no adult content And that's all pervasive, we can't get funded, we couldn't get banked It took me four years to find one bank in America that would allow us to open a business bank account Try doing business for four years without a business bank account by the way Can't tell you how I did it, in ways I shouldn't have But it makes life very difficult One of our biggest operational challenges is payments PayPal won't work with adult content, Stripe won't We have to work with adult friendly payment processors Who because anyone adult has nowhere else to go Charge extortionate fees I pay out 12% of my revenue every month in payment processing fees alone When the mainstream rate is 3% or less Every tech service I want to use, the terms of service always say No adult content We had to build our entire platform from scratch as proprietary technology Because existing streaming services will not stream adult content We are banned from advertising anywhere, we cannot promote ourselves Everything is a problem So given that it's a miracle that with no promotion advertising We are averaging five to six video submissions a day currently We currently have on our platform roughly 3,000 videos That number fluctuates because this is the real world So our commitment to our Make Love Not Porn Stars is The moment anything changes Your relationship, your life, your circumstances, even just your mind You tell us we take your videos down instantly And by the way, I should explain Because we do many things nobody else does When I say we take your videos down instantly What I mean is, there is no process There's no online form to fill in There's no waiting period You just message us As the Make Love Not Porn Stars did the other day Within 50 minutes of getting their email, their videos are gone No one else does that, by the way But what that means is, we have a constantly fluctuating number of videos Because this is the real world You know, we reflect the real world People break up So we'll get an email from a couple going Sorry guys, we've broken up, can you take all our videos down? We'll go, damn 30 videos gone in one fell swoop, but that's the real world But again, because this is the real world Quite often, a few months later Hi guys, we're back together again Can you put them back up? That happens, with some couples that happens very frequently And so, yeah, at the moment roughly 3,000 But as I say, the number fluctuates And you have to identify yourself also before you can upload the video Yep, so, you don't have to identify yourself to the world But I designed Make Love Not Porn through the female lens To be the safest place on the internet So, first of all, you know, our video submissions process cannot be completed Unless your video is fully consensual, legal and everyone's over 18 And to confirm that, we require two forms of government issued ID from every participant By the way, every other adult site only requires one We require two, okay And, you know, we require that, even if, for example, you've chosen to have somebody else behind the camera Even if you never see them We have to know exactly who they are We require two forms of government issued ID from them as well It is not possible even to complete submitting a video that's not fully consensual, legal Let alone ever have it published However, you're absolutely free to be anonymous You know, so we know who you are, but nobody else does You can absolutely choose a user handle with whatever name you want If you want to, you're free to be anonymous in your videos You know, you can wear masks, faces in shadow, out of frame Probably about half of our Make Love Not Porn stars choose to stay anonymous The other half are happy showing their faces So missionen med Make Love Not Porn er altså at gøre verden til et bedre sted Mere kærlighed, mere sex, med samtykke og penge på bankkontoen, hvis man er heldig Men hvad siger den danske seksolog Daisy Løvendal egentlig til det her? Jeg hedder Daisy Løvendal, og til dagligt, der driver jeg Løvendals Akademi Og på Løvendals Akademi, der har vi en seksolog- og part-serapeutuddannelse, som jeg er uddannelsesleder for Så laver jeg terapi, så laver jeg forskellige kurser Blandt andet sådan årsforløb for kvinder, og nogle gange så laver jeg lederudvikling Og så er jeg i gang med at skrive min fjerde bog, som udkommer i starten af næste år Men jeg vil sige, at alt hvad jeg laver handler dybest set om det der med at være menneske Men de største følelser er i de mest intime og sårbare områder Og det er jo helt perfekt til det, vi skal tale om, nemlig MakeLoveNotPorn Det er en website, som Cindy Gallup, hun har lavet Og jeg har jo siddet og kigget på det her Og jeg er en lille smule i tvivl om, hvad det egentlig er, hun har gang i Om det overhovedet hjælper hendes mission der med, at det kan gøre verden til et bedre sted Og hvad skal man sige, vi får afmystificeret porno, og vi får, hvad skal man sige, mere naturlig relation til hinanden Ved at se almindelige mennesker dyrke sex på nettet Helt umiddelbart, har hun ret, hvad tænker du om det? Jeg tænker, at hver gang der kommer nogen og siger, nu har jeg den teknologiske løsning På de problemer udfordrende jeg ved at være menneske Så tænker jeg, nej, det har du ikke Fordi jeg tænker simpelthen ikke, når jeg kigger på det landskab, vi lever i At det, vi har behov for, er at blive mere teknologiske Helt klart er der visse fremskridt, jeg synes er fantastisk Jeg er selv meget optaget af, hvad der sker inden for CRISPR-teknologien og andre ting Jeg er en stor fan af teknologi Men når det handler om at være menneske i de intime relationer Ha' en krop, ha' en seksualitet, ha' et kærlighedsforhold Så er det helt klart et af de områder, hvor teknologien ikke kan løse vores udfordringer Så jeg tænker, vil du gerne være en bedre sexpartner? Vil du gerne have større orgasmer? Vil du gerne have en dybere forhold til din kæreste? Vil du gerne elske din krop mere? Vil du gerne have bedre sex, mere nærvær, mere forbindelse? Så vi har helt klart anbefalt, at du slukker skærmen Og i stedet for våger at gøre det, der er så enormt svært Nemlig at være der selv uden nogen filtre Men det er jo også det, hun siger Det er jo for svært at være sig selv uden nogen filtre Og folk de går så til porno på nettet Altså sådan en kommersiel porno For at finde ud af, hvad vil det egentlig sige At have et seksuelt forhold til et andet menneske Og det er et problem Ja, men jeg synes på en eller anden måde For det første, hvis man skulle tage det sådan helt Så nu har jeg også selv brugt hele formiddagen på at kigge på nettet Tough job, somebody's got to do it Men jeg var jo nødt til at sikre mig, at jeg vidste hvad jeg talte om Så jeg har jo rudet rundt på hendes site Der er jo rigtig meget af det, der er rigtig charmerende Jeg kan sagtens se det der med, at de ligesom prøver at kuratere At det er mere almindelige mennesker, der har forskellige kønsuttryk Og de gør lidt mere ud af at forespille og alle de der ting Men dybest set er det jo porno Altså, så hvordan vi end vender og drejer det, så er det porno Der er også en økonomisk transaktion, du betaler for at se den her porno Og når du lægger din porno ud, så får du penge for at gøre det Så det kan godt være, at det ikke er kommersielt at instruere Men det er jo stadigvæk en fiktiv virkelighed Hvor det er, at du præsenterer et eller andet Så i mit hoved er det jo sådan lidt ligesom Du kan være mesterkok og have tv-program Eller du kan være en kvinde eller mand, der er god til at lave mad og have din egen kanal Men det er jo stadigvæk et madlavningsprogram Men hvad er det, der gør det her til porno? Jamen det er jo egentlig meget interessant at spørge om det Fordi i det hele taget kan vi jo have en lang diskussion om, hvad er porno? Her i Danmark, der har vi en fremragende mand, som hedder Søren Heijn Rasmussen Der faktisk har forsket det og skrevet en bog om det Han er historiker Det er svært at definere, hvad der er porno Fordi porno er jo et eller andet sted kendetegnet ved At det er billeder eller film af seksualitet og kropnøgenhed Men noget er erotisk kunst Noget er porno, ikke? Hvornår er en eller anden film af nøgenhed og kysser kram? Der er masser af Hollywoodfilm, vi sidder og ser derhjemme Der indeholder ret meget seksualitet Der er ikke pink shots, hvor du deciderer har en penis Der for eksempel penetrer et eller andet Men der er masser af sex i det Der er masser af reklamer rundt omkring i byen Hvor man bruger seksualitet som et kommersielt greb Så definitionen af, hvad der er porno Handler jo i virkeligheden også meget om, hvem der ser det Nogle mennesker vil se et klip af et eller andet og sige, det er porno Andre vil sige, det er da ikke porno Nogle synes, der skal være for eksempel de der pink shots for det er porno Andre synes, det er lige så meget det at se en erotisk forbindelse Traditionelt har vi haft en idé om at kalde porno det, vi ikke så godt kunne lide Det var porno Det vi godt kunne lide og synes var fint, det er erotisk kunst Så man kan sige, det er jo svært at have en entydig definition af, hvad der er porno Det er jo et begreb, der hele tiden er i udvikling Jeg tænker også, fordi det her det er jo i vidt omfang, så vidt man kan forstå Bl.a. et ægtepar, som jo simpelthen bare stiller et kamera op i deres soveværelse og så går de til den, og så lægger de ud på det her website Og så får de, som du siger, godt nok nogle penge for det, hvis der er nogen, der gider at se det og betale for det Men jeg er lidt i tvivl om, hvor går grænsen så for, at det er Altså, der er jo forskel på det her, der er på Pornhub, for eksempel, ikke? Jo jo, det er der, fuldstændig Ligeså vel som der er forskel mellem, om du laver en kortfilm, som du optager på din telefon og distribuerer på en eller anden kanal eller om du er en superkendt instruktør, der har mange millioner til at lave filmen Men det er jo stadigvæk en film af sex Det er regnet Jeg synes, det er charmerende, det vil jeg lige sige Jeg synes, det er super charmerende, det der med at man som privatperson har mulighed for at dele Jeg synes også, der er noget meget charmerende i at man kan se forskellige aldersgrupper og kroppe Der er rigtig meget af det, som jeg synes, er Jamen, jeg ved ikke, jeg bruger ordet charmerende, fordi Jamen, det tænker jeg jo også, hvorfor det er charmerende? Jeg kan godt lide værdierne i det Jeg kan godt lide, hun er også selv en ældre kvinde, som står rigtig meget ved hendes seksualitet og tit viser sig selv i sexet undertøj Jeg synes, der er noget fedt og empowering i, at hun går ud og siger Det kan godt være, jeg ikke er 27, det kan godt være, jeg ikke har bryster, der sidder oppe under hagen men jeg har stadigvæk en seksualitet, det er vildt med Jeg mener bare stadigvæk, at det er sejt af porno Så det er porno lavet på nogle lidt andre præmisser hvor det er, vi prøver på at sige, det her er det mere inkluderende Vi deler vores seksualitet, de her mennesker har også en relation Eller, det vælger vi at tro Dybest set ved vi det jo ikke Men vi køber i hvert fald ind på ideen om, at det her ægte par, der har sex derhjemme og optager det Gør det, fordi det har de lyst til Men jeg kan ikke lade være med også at lægge mærke til, at pengene er en del af det Fordi jeg er ikke sikker på, at der ville være den samme Der er et eller andet sted inde i mig, der også tænker Okay, super charmerende, jeg forstår det Fedt, empowering, vi kan se ægte mennesker have sex Men økonomien i det gør også noget Det ville være noget andet, hvis der slet ikke var nogen Der hverken gav penge eller fik penge for det Altså et eller andet sted Det at der er en økonomisk transaktion Er jo også en del af det, der kendetegner porno Ligeså vel som det også kendetegner sexarbejde Så jeg har det sådan lidt Jeg tror bare ikke, at vi kan Jeg tror bare, at vi bliver lidt for forblændet Af de fine ord omkring det Hvis vi ikke også våger at se på det aspekt Og jeg har det også sådan lidt Jeg har svært ved helt at købe Når jeg tænker på min praksiserfaring Nu har jeg brugt rigtig mange år på at tale med mennesker I et fortroligt rum Om det allermest intime Det er bestemt ikke mit indtryk, at rigtig mange mennesker Laver porno og uploader det på nettet Og det er bestemt heller ikke mit indtryk At det er folks generelle lyster Jeg vil faktisk sige, at det er meget, meget, meget, meget Sældent, jeg møder nogen Og de få, jeg har mødt gennem tiden Der gør det, gør det også på grund af økonomien De gør det også fordi Jamen, jeg kan arbejde I det her måske Lav-income-job, som er rigtig hårdt Eller jeg kan have den her konto Så er der jo også nogen, der nyder det arbejde Jeg mener jo ikke, der er noget forkert, jeg nyder sit arbejde Så jeg siger jo ikke, at det er en anden diskussion Men jeg oplever faktisk ikke At det er fordi, at helt vildt mange Bare tænder på at dele det her Jeg oplever faktisk, at seksualitet for rigtig mange mennesker Er sindssygt privat Og det er rigtig mange menneskers største frygt Ligesom at blive filmet eller delt Eller set i det super private Så dem, der gør det Kan jeg ikke lade være med at opfatte som en lille smule professionelle Og jeg vil også sige Nu, som jeg sagde, at jeg brugte formiddagen på at sidde og kigge lidt Fordi jeg ville gerne lige være opdateret Så det ikke var rent min fordom, der talte Mange af de film, jeg i hvert fald Og kiggede lidt i forskellige kategorier Det var jo stadigvæk ret flotte mennesker Og det var egentlig meget godt lavet Altså jeg ved heller ikke, hvordan du har sex Men hvad jeg ved om menneskers generelle seksualitet Så er det jo ikke de fleste af os, der har tre kameraerne stående Fra alle mulige vinkler Inklusiv helt vildt tæt på vores kønsorganer For at få de rigtige shots Så der var jo en vis professionalisme i det Det er jo lige det, man kan undre sig over, når man kigger på det der website Fordi man tænker, okay, I har jo ikke bare lige stillet telefonen op Men der er en vis production value, som man siger i noget af det, ikke? Fuldstændigt Men det der med, at hun så siger Jamen altså, vi skal have uddannet de unge til at forstå At sex er sådan naturligt Det er ikke, hvad skal man sige Alle de der flosker der omkring almindelig porno Lykkes hun med det? Eller er det bare sådan et eller andet skalkeskjul i virkeligheden For at vise noget porno? Ja, jeg ville nok ikke bruge ordet skalkeskjul Men ja, når jeg sidder og kigger på det Og jeg sidder virkelig sådan og prøver at tænke Jeg er åben Så tænker jeg Men det har jeg også porno Det har jeg jo præcis Altså på rigtig mange faktorer Er det jo præcis det samme Og det fører mig lidt tilbage til det, jeg startede med at sige Hvis vi gerne vil have unge mennesker Det ved jeg også Jeg er selv mor, jeg er teenage børn Jeg vil jo rigtig gerne have at mine børn Og alle deres fremtidige relationer Har et sundt og naturligt og kærligt og frit forhold til seksualitet Det er faktisk meget det, jeg har dedikeret mit liv til at arbejde for Men det tror jeg ikke de får ved at bruge mere tid på at se porno Uanset om det er den ene eller den anden slags Det tror jeg faktisk de får i det med at man det er et kedeligt ord Kan kalde relationstræning Det handler om Jeg kan mærke dig Du kan mærke dig Vi er nødt til at afklare grænser og løster Og så er vi nødt til at prøve at være i den her dans Med alt hvad det indebærer Fra hvordan agerer vi Når den ene gerne vil til fest og den anden ikke vil Og den ene synes at det er okay at flytte med den anden Og den anden ikke synes Og den ene vil have sex på den ene Og den anden vil på den anden måde Det er jo træning i at være menneske Og det kan du ikke lære ved at sidde og se andre menneskers relationer Jeg køber simpelthen ikke ideen om At du bliver bedre til at være i relationer Eller bliver en bedre elsker Eller får bedre sex Af at se en lidt anden og bedre form for porno Det er undskyld sammenligning Lidt ligesom Du kan se lige så mange medlavningsprogrammer du vil Men det gør dig ikke til en masterkok Fordi det er noget andet at have kniven i hånden selv Jeg møder hver dag mennesker Som har forskelligt køn Forskellig alder Forskellige politiske orienteringer Alt muligt andet Som synes det i virkeligheden At være tydelig med grænser og løster i det intime er svært Men den træning starter ikke ved at se bedre porno Den træning starter med Okay Mærk lige ind i dig Hvad sker der i dig Ha' modet til at udtrykke dig Ha' muligheden for virkelig at lytte Hvad er det din partner siger Hvad sker der imellem jer Når du udtrykker et eller andet Og som jeg siger igen Det er relationstræning Ja Seksologen parterapøven køber ikke rigtig idéen Ja Seksologen parterapøven køber ikke rigtig idéen Men ikke desto mindre så er der et fællesskab af mennesker omkring make love not porn Som uploader deres videoer Og Ariel Martinez hun følger dem tæt Vi har vi har en international community And so people are at different time zones People are at different parts of the world And we get so excited when we get a new video from a country we haven't Have make love not porn stars in We just got a submission from like Indonesia a couple weeks ago That was very exciting But yeah, we a lot of it is over email But we also do regularly host zoom meetups for our make love not porn stars to Meet us and meet each other and just kind of talk about why they started doing this I always think it's so interesting to hear the different paths that lead people to submitting videos on make love not porn Just because they're like really wildly different I think that for a lot of people it can kind of be a way of expressing their sexuality or experimenting with their sexuality For one couple it was a attempt to like relight the spark after having a baby And this couple I've mentioned this before but they are so sweet They're in the United States and they were really active for a little bit Like they started submitting and then they got really into it and started like experimenting with all of these like sex toys and filming it and experimenting with different dynamics and sharing it and it's really great And then I got this email like two in the morning once And they're like, oh, we just came out to each other as bisexual and we wanted you to be the first to know And I was like, oh my god, that's so great. Congratulations And I think that you know submitting to make love not porn and talking about what they were comfortable sharing on make love not porn What they were comfortable doing really opened up a new channel of discussion for them in which they were able to experiment with all of these things sexually And ultimately, you know have these realizations about themselves sexually and share it with each other and then share it with me Which was so generous and sweet of them But I think that that kind of speaks to the intimate relationships that we're building at make love not porn and also just like the transformative quality that sharing their real world sex had on these people and that's something we see a lot Something else about make love not porn that's really unique about us versus other any other kind of adult content platform is that we really want our make love not porn stars to steer the ship in terms of what they're submitting and what they're comfortable with So this particular couple had originally started being anonymous on make love not porn and that can look a couple different ways But they didn't show their faces in any videos. They would like edit it out and blur it out, which is totally fine with us Other people wear like masks or wigs or disguises to you know, keep their faces secret, which is totally fine But after a couple months they actually ended up revealing their faces and being like you know what I think that if anyone is watching these videos, you know, we're on the same we're in the same club and I'm really proud to be a part of this and that was quite moving to me I was with to a workshop where they presented some of the people who uploaded videos and there was a community-like feeling, so a family-like feeling And so I thought, what did they get out of these people? Can they see it as a kind of therapy? I don't know, I would absolutely not call it therapy. I'm not in a situation, but there are no one who has done anything out of it There are a lot of different things that people have on, and some have also on, and some have on, and some are on, and there are no one there at home And they're on and are on and because they think that they're on an arm and tiltræk. I think there's a lot of identity here. Lies and well, why there are a lot of people who have seen them from their faces and themselves It's because it's a lot of places that are so great at the experience that you have at the point, you have at the point of the link A lot of times of things, we can try to see, for our Garden secondo section And I can say it — like, at the community Where we do all the people at all parents do that We're also a common community We have had enoughк Temple for a community That's very important work In the market we can't-equify temptation Or a path,ああ the truth Or would be like the pain In fact, whatever is every aspect of that I've heard boمر Skilled and gossip I've had sex with really many young men, and that they're really bad for, because they're looking for much porn. Altså, porn has been able to do them. But it's what you call anecdotism. Yeah, it can be, you've had the experience. It's a good thing I've had. but we've got all the experience of a experience. But because one or another had a experience, let's say, I had a experience of, at I was kissed mid on the east of my family. So I can't say to all mennesks, if you have a pair of people, so you just have a kiss mid on the east of my family, for so you will have a experience of a sudden. It's absurd. And it's just there, where we're nødt til, as fargpersoner, to skilne mellem, what there virkede for nogen in a certain situation and something more general. Cindy Gallop and Make Love Not Porn laver den, I think I'm a great, the big problem. that they go from anecdotisk viden to something general. It's a little for all. Forskning tells us, we can actually say, at porno gør, at we have a certain sexual affair. It's actually something we're doing really much here for the time. Porno is a component in the way we're developing. But it's best not the only one. So we can't say, at because you have seen porno since you were 14, you have the sexual affair, which you have. It's absurd. So you can't say, if you think that some are bad to be able to do sex, it's because they have seen porno. And you can't help it if you have seen another porno. But what I also want to say with it is, as therapy, when I'm talking about mennesken in my field, sexology is a very broad betrothed, that you have a solution. You should see porno, or you should try to do it, or you should use the needle, So I'm in the way stærk provokeret, because I feel like, at it's a mangel on the way of knowing, how mennesker actually works. It's a super fed overskrift. You can get many clicks, you can also get many overskrifters, you can get many talk, but you can actually help mennesker. So it's a clear answer is, if I would advise people to try to do it, it's never. And I would say, if you meet someone, who does it, so you should come out of the relationship. Uddering in a vis far. Uddering in a vis far. But if you said to me, my største dream, it's to make a porn film and to make it on the net, for it gives me so much joy, so I have hope for you, for I can love you. If it makes you happy, and it's under full samtyk, and it's it, it's it. I have no doubt on it. Men hvis du tror, det redder dit parforhold, din seksualitet, din selvværdsfølelse og noget som helst andet, nej. Nej, for der er vel også de samme mekanikker, der gør sig gældende, altså netop det der med, at man skal have betaling osv. Du kunne jo lige så vel formodentlig komme ud for, at du kan lægge masser af de der videoer, hvor der er ingen kæft, der gider købe dem. Ja, det er det, nogle gange joker, jeg siger. Jeg tror, der er rigtig meget den seks at dyrke, som er super nødelsesfulde, for dem er der, der er i det, er der jo ingen, der vil kigge på. Meget god seks foregår jo indeni. Det foregår jo i den følelse af forbindelse og kærlighed, jeg har. Det er jo ikke nødvendigvis særlig fedt at se på, så jeg tror, der er noget af den bedste seks, der dyrkes i dag i København, er der ingen, der vil givet at kigge på, hvis vi kunne. Fordi det, der er så fedt og magisk, er i fornemmelsen og i oplevelsen, de to mennesker har. Og det er jo også det, nu spurgte du mig tidligere, hvad porno er. Jeg tænker tit, og det har jeg også tænkt, hey, morges, når jeg så porno, jeg tror ikke, det der er særlig nødelsesfuldt. Altså, den der stilling, eller den der måde at gøre det på, og så særlig med det der kamera, fire centimeter for din klitoris, virker bare ikke særlig nødelsesfuldt. Og det kan godt være, at det er sådan, at min egen definition er det, men nødelse, erotik, kontakt, intimitet, det er jo ikke altid noget, man kan se udefra. Det er jo den oplevelse, man har ved at være i det. Det er ligesom forskellen mellem, at spille musik, eller nyt på Spotify. Det er ikke det samme. Vi ender rape culture by showing you how wonderful great consensual communicative sex is in the real world. Our social sex videos role model good sexual values and good sexual behavior. And here's the important part. We make all of that aspirational versus what you see in porn and popular culture. And how effective we are at that is demonstrated by a very interesting fact. So I designed to make Love Not Porn to be fully diverse and inclusive. And we are. Our members of our Make Love Not Porn stars range in age from 18 to 80 are male, female, trans, non-binary, straight, LGBTQ, all races, ethnicities. But in the 10 years we've operated, we've observed that make Love Not Porn is especially a revelation to men. More men write appreciative emails leave grateful comments than anybody else because we are something unique that men will find nowhere else on the internet which is a safe space where men can be and watch other men being open, emotional and vulnerable around sex. You would not believe the number of men who write to us and say, I just watched my first video of Make Love Not Porn and afterwards I cried. I've been saying for years I wish society understood the opposite of what it thinks is true. Women enjoy sex just as much as men and men are just as romantic as women. Yet neither gender is allowed to openly celebrate either fact. We'd all be a lot better off if they were. I picked up a wonderful exchange on Twitter last year between two men. The first man had tweeted, this is obviously a joke, he tweeted, hey guys, I've got this really weird fetish. I've got this kink. Well, I want to watch porn where people are honest, loving, loyal, decent, and really like each other. Hit me up with your hottest things please. Another man replied and he said, there's this website called Make Love Not Porn. We can watch real couples fucking and making love. He said, I watched a video where the woman said to her man, I love you while they're making love. He said sincerely, I cried when I heard that. We are one of the solutions to toxic masculinity. The next step for Cindy Gallop is a sex-education site, a academy, as she calls it a academy for people in all parts of the world, especially the parts that don't have access to sexual education. Now, Cindy Gallop is in a crowdfunding where everyone can bid and come to to own a small part of Make Love Not Porn. $17 million is to scale Make Love Not Porn and to build out three additional products that I've talked about for years. I've had them in the pipeline for years, but I've never been able to raise the funding to build them. And by the way, I should just explain that right now I have exactly four employees. I'm wearing 18 hats. For a 10-year-old business, that's extraordinary. So, that funding goes to professionalising Make Love Not Porn. I want to be able to hire my own CTO into the company. I want my own development team. I want my own CFO, my COO, my HR person. I've never had any of these. I'm doing it all myself. Okay, so staffing up is a very big part of that. But that $17 million goes to, first of all, as I said, scaling and optimising the core platform. What you see of Make Love Not Porn currently is only 50% built in my vision. And it's shitty tech because I haven't had the money to be able to build out everything I wanted to. So that's absolutely priority number one. Priority number two is to build what parents and teachers have been asking me for since day one of Make Love Not Porn. And the important thing with our product roadmap is none of it is finger in the wind stuff. People have been asking us for these products every day for the past 14 years. So the second one is very obvious. I want to build the zero to 18 and beyond sex education expansion of Make Love Not Porn, makelovenotporn.academy. I bought that URL many years ago. If you go there, you'll see a holding page there. Then I want to build a messaging app because the reason it's a messaging app is because apps like Snapchat and WhatsApp refuse to admit that the huge growth has been driven by one thing and one thing only, sexting. Here's the problem. When A refuse to admit that sexting is a perfectly normal universal human activity, B refuse to admit that a ton of it goes on in your app, you then do not proactively design for it. You don't design for security, privacy and consent, and that is why we have a huge revenge porn problem globally. So I want to build Co-Central. Again, had the pipeline for years, bought the URL, trademarked the name. Co-Central is the safe sexting app that enables you to do two things. You can sext completely safely and securely. State-of-the-art cyber security, inability to screencap anything, you can't screen record, everything lives in the app, nothing goes on the person's phone. But the second thing Co-Central does, because this is what we're all about at Make Love Not Porn, is it has built-in features designed to improve your communication around sex, to improve your sexual relationship. So for example, we will have our own version of Snapchat's filters. You can overlay these on your sexy photos and videos, but what our filters do is they say things like, I really love it when you do that. Actually, I'm not so keen when you do that. I would really rather you did not do that. In other words, they make it easy to communicate what people find impossible to say face-to-face in bed. But the purpose of Co-Central, as with the Academy, is I've also designed these products as growth engines for the core business. Because once you are sharing sexy videos on Co-Central, it's just one step more to watching other people's and sharing yours on Make Love Not Porn. It's designed to be a fantastic recruitment engine for the core business. And the third product is an ad tech product to enable all of us sex-related, female-lens, sexual and wellness ventures, to advertise. Because I'm all about building solutions to my own problems. Og for at ikke skal være løgn, så har Cindy Gallup også en idé om, at hun kan skabe en kunstig intelligensløsning baseret på Make Love Not Porn-vitoer. So I've had an AI strategy for Make Love Not Porn for five years, and I've not yet been able to raise the funding to build it. Again, that's something I want to do. Our curators watch every video from beginning to end, review every profile post, every video comment, before we approve or reject and we publish it. What that means is that at Make Love Not Porn, we have a unique pool of video content that forms a large video model. And so I have a strategy of what I call HI-powered AI, Human Intelligence Powered Artificial Intelligence. Because at a time when there is a huge debate around ethics in AI and the fact that generative AI is drawing from large models that are drawing from the worst of the internet and perpetuating it, with Make Love Not Porn, I want to build through HI-powered AI an algorithm for consent. Because we can build an AI-powered algorithm that could be used in Hollywood for movie and TV production to run sex scenes through this algorithm to make sure that they are consensual. Because in a male-dominated entertainment world, there are a ton of sex scenes out there that are theoretically consensual, but replicate non-consensual dynamics. It could be used in the criminal justice system. We know the extraordinarily low conviction rates for rape and sexual assault. And that is a demonstration again of the future of the internet designed and built through the female lens to be completely safe. So when I can raise the funding, I can build that and show the world a completely different approach AI. And if you are interested in your own chemistry at make love not porn, so have Cindy Gallup a special gift to us danskere. I think I would just add that, you know, I would love Denmark to make Danish love not porn. Because one of our agendas at Make Love Not Porn is we want to help countries reclaim their national sexual identity. Because every country has one. National heritage, culture, tradition, stereotypes exist around sex as much as they do around other forms of national behaviour like cooking or eating. it's just we never talk about it. But anyone who has loved their way around the world knows people make love differently based on the culture society, country they come from or rather they used to. Porn is homogenising sex globally. And so we're putting the call out make Danish love not porn, make French love not porn, make Swedish love not porn, make Chinese love not porn. We want countries to represent. We want countries to be proud of how they have real world sex. We want to instill a sense of national pride. Wouldn't mind instilling a sense of national competitiveness by the way. And you know a country like Denmark, you know part of what you know Scandinavia brings to the world has more healthy openness around this. I would love many more Danes to make Danish love not porn on make love not porn. Man the other 춰言 cherche the tiagr also with many other things, and it can you find in our archive, which is on techtopia.com. You can follow your opinion in our Facebook group, which is techtopia backstage. You can follow us on henriksnabelagetektopia.com. You can follow us on Instagram, which is techtopia.com. We are still on xnabelagetektopia.com. And so we are on LinkedIn. I have also a newbie. You can subscribe to techtopia.com. Techtopia bliver produceret af mig. Jeg hedder Henrik Føns. Jeg er fra hjælp af Verone Cavolin. Vi er tilbage næste mandag på Genhør.